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Info-Atari16 Digest   Wednesday, August 23, 1989   Volume 89 : Issue 408

This weeks Editor: Bill Westfield

Today's Topics:

               Atari loyalty....How long can it last...
                            Re: X windows
                      Re: Multitasking on the ST
                         Re: MODEDIT FILE(S)
                       Re: Apathy and Defeatism
             Re: QUESTION ABOUT SEAGATE HARD DRIVE/SUBSTN
                            MMU's and ST's
                      Re: Multitasking on the ST
                    Replies to some NET questions
                     Re: New Atari 68030 Machines
                      Re: Multitasking on the ST
                            Re: X windows

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 89 20:38:00 EDT
From: "Chuck Rickard; (PC)" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Atari loyalty....How long can it last...
To: "info-atari16" <[e-mail]>

I have been with Atari for years and years and years, but we all seem to start
our messages off like that.  I hate to say this, but being a proud Atari owner
(we always seem to say that alot also...), I really worried about its future.
I really look forward to the new products that they are coming out with, but
just wonder if they will support them.  Notice that I say "WILL" instead of
"CAN".  I just wonder how long they expect us to put up with service like they
dish out, and its not forced upon them, it's by choice!

A good friend of mine is an Atari Dealer.  He sells Ataris because he likes
the machine, but the company is driving him crazy.  One time he had a Mega
3.5 drive that went bad while it was still in warrantee.  According to Atari's
policy, you must call and get a return authorization number for the drive, but
this was almost impossible.  Every time he called the person was either out to
lunch, in a meeting, or on vacation.  For two weeks he called only to get the
same responses over and over.  He finally ripped the drive apart and tried
to fix it himself, and he didn't even have a repair manual for the drive!
He got it working after a few hours, but with no help from Atari.  Next, a
person from Atari calls about bill payment which is all in order, but the guy
on the other end is totally confused because he is new!  The latest thing is a
real killer!  He has been calling his dealer rep for a week now trying to get
some stuff, and now finds out that the guy was either fired or moved and the
account is now being handled by a dealer rep group of some kind.  Atari never
even told him of the new situation or the new number!

Now I ask you, is it right for Atari to treat their people this way%ri?  Every
body seems to be getting fired at Atari, and nothing seems to be getting done!
Cindy is gone and then its Chris.  Dealer reps are gone,%r and the rep group
is probably soon to follow.  Who knows whats going to happen next!

Now you wonder whe%rther this is_ Atari's ignorance or do they don't care!

Please reply.  Tell me what you think.  I won't get any responses from Atari.
They don't care.

                              Chuck Rickard
                              UMBC Academic Computing
                              CHUCK@UMBC

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 89 00:08:00 GMT
From:
 mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!mnetor!tmsoft!masnet!canremote!davi
[e-mail]  (DAVID MEGGINSON)
Subject: Re: X windows
To: [e-mail]

As far as I know, there is no XWindows.  There is a simple program
called Unix Windows, which allows you to run several tasks on a remote
Unix machine in different GEM windows.

Atari has mentioned that they might include X-Windows in the
long-promised but unlikely-ever-to-be-seen 68030 machine.  Perhaps
that's where you heard it.
---
 * Via ProDoor 3.0R

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 89 00:12:00 GMT
From:
 gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!u
tzoo!mnetor!tmsoft!masnet!canremote![e-mail]
 (DAVID MEGGINSON)
Subject: Re: Multitasking on the ST
To: [e-mail]

I did not realise that ST Minix had removed the 64k restriction.  How
can it handle a program that uses, say, 2 megs of data and 200k of code?
 I might be interested.

Can you use UUCP with it?  Does it allow a scheduler in the background?
Sorry to put this here, but I have no access to Unix, so I can't get at
any Minix groups.
---
 * Via ProDoor 3.0R

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 89 00:05:00 GMT
From:
 gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!u
tzoo!mnetor!tmsoft!masnet!canremote![e-mail]
 (DAVID MEGGINSON)
Subject: Re: MODEDIT FILE(S)
To: [e-mail]

The documentation clearly states that there is no editor supplied with
the system.  Instead, you must take your favorite (GEM-based) editing
program and rename it to EDITOR.PRG, then put it in the same directory
as the M2 GEM shell.  Unfortunately, it says all of this in German.

The German M2 is terrific, especially its high-level GEM functions.
Send me some email at my Bitnet address (not here) if you have any more
problems.

[e-mail] (David Megginson, Toronto, CANADA)
---
 * Via ProDoor 3.0R

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 89 11:13:07 GMT
From:
 cs.utexas.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!mailrus!sharkey!mcf!teemc!ka3ovk![e-mail]
io-state.edu  (Marshall Lake)
Subject: Re: Apathy and Defeatism
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (John Logajan) writes:
>[e-mail] (Peter Ted Szymonik) writes:
>> Atari's strategy HAS also worked by the way - financially the company is
>> very strong and solid and 400 on the Fortune 500 list - far from an
>> easy achievement for a compnay that appeared a mere four years ago!
>
>Atari is also number 91 as far as all US companies involved in electronic
>equipment manufacture (not just computers!)  Atari is a relatively large
>(net income wise) company.
>
>--
>- John M. Logajan @ Network Systems; 7600 Boone Ave; Brooklyn Park, MN 55428  -
>- [e-mail] / ...rutgers!umn-cs!ns!logajan / [e-mail] -

Aren't these statistics more than a year old?  I had thought they weren't
true any longer.

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 89 01:36:10 GMT
From: tahoe!wheeler![e-mail]  (Mike Whitbeck)
Subject: Re: QUESTION ABOUT SEAGATE HARD DRIVE/SUBSTN
To: [e-mail]

I would very much like to hear about the 138N 30Mbyte Seagate
        ~~~~
hard drive. I recently ordered an Atari Megafile 30 from ST-Plus
(aka Zephyr Microsystems). After a month - still no drive
(it was shipped but must have been lost by UPS, we'll ship
another right away, oh well that one was the last and it was
sold over the counter - sorry when we restock we'll rush  one to
you PRIORITY!, oh, er uh- we decided not to restock (meanwhile
my VISA bill comes with the charge on it!), we'll refund your
money less 20% (over $100!!), - you (the buyer) are responsible
if you don't get the drive you ordered, UPS MAY make YOU pay for
the lost drive....) *

After much wasted time and desperate for a hard drive I let
the owner(?) talk me into a 138N in a ICD box and a ??(BMS?)
controller. WELL AM I GONNA REGTET THIS?

Please let me know if you have good or bad things to say about
~~~~~~
the 138N, I gather I should be carefull about the rom serial
numbers but what numbers should I look for or look-out for?

-----------------------
* for the record I have purchased two color ST's and lots of
software from these guy's and this is the my only really bad
experience. At no time was any mention evermade of a return or
restocking charge (on my first order they told me that I would
get a full refund or prompt replacement/repair of damaged goods
and this claim was honored on my first ST which arrived with a
dead monitor). New owners? Bad day for the boss? Karma? It
appears this outit does business under different rules now.

* also for the record I called UPS and they said I could trace
 the original shipment myself IF I could get zephyr-ST/Plus'
 shipper no. BUT in NO CASE would UPS hold the receiver
 accountable for a lost/stolen/misdelivered order. Furthermore
 the SHIPPER chooses if hand delivery to a persononly or leave on
 doorstep is OK option BUT IN ANY CASE THE SHIPPER IS ALSO
 PROTECTED FROM LOSS- UPS WILL PAY THEM FOR THE LOST ITEM.
 So in no instance would Zeph/Plus  be out any money.

 As for the trace, I have not yet received the shipper no. for
 Zephyr/ST-Plus but a quick check under both names show no
 shipments made. I'll let you good folk know how this melodrama
 resolves itself.

 [e-mail]  | [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 89 00:09:19 GMT
From: hp-sdd!ncr-sd!tw-rnd![e-mail]  (John Lindwall)
Subject: MMU's and ST's
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Leo de Wit) writes:
>.. what I meant was that a
>non-multitasking machine like the ST can benefit from process
>protection too.

Agreed.

>If you want to do something
>special, OK become root and then do your stuff (very careful), then go
>back being a normal user.

OK.

>| [I, John Lindwall, said]
>|So I assume (if you were using a multi-tasking system) that you would prefer
>|NOT to have process protection?  I do not see the logic in this.
>
>No, what I meant was that I would prefer to have memory protection in
>both cases. I don't see a reason why it should be more important in the
>multitasking case. You can have lots of vulnerable processes in the
>other case as well.

Agreed.

>...IMHO the most important use for VM is not protection, not paging
>in additional memory when needed, but ... the processes being position-
>independent! Try to implement the UNIX fork() call, you know what I mean
>

Good point.

Now that we've hashed this subject out a bit I see that we seem to be in
mutual agreement!  I've really enjoyed the exchange, but I don't see any
further areas to discuss.  I've benefited by hearing your views, and I'm
sure others have as well.  Thank you.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
John Lindwall                            [e-mail]
           "Above opinions are my own, not my employer's"
   Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
John Lindwall                            [e-mail]
           "Above opinions are my own, not my employer's"
   Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 89 17:37:00 GMT
From: unsvax!jimi!otto![e-mail]  (Rex Jolliff)
Subject: Re: Multitasking on the ST
To: [e-mail]

In a precious article, I write:

It would be real nice to have, especially for
software developers.  This kind of personal computer really doesn't
need it though.  I seem to crash each computer equally as often when
writing code for them.  It takes longer to reboot the Amiga though.
                         ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In reply, [e-mail] (John Lindwall) writes:

>Try using the Amiga warm-bootable ramdisk,

I admit this will help alot.  Except when the machine crashes so hard
that it won't warmboot off the raddrive.

>or a hard drive :).

I wasn't being fair my Atari has a hard drive, the Amiga does not.  But,
when I didn't have a hard drive for the ST, it still beat the amiga on
cold boots.

>Do Atari ST's have a bootable ramdisk, or even a ramdisk whose contents
>survive a warm boot?

Yes.  There are at least two or three.  I haven't had a need for a ramdisk
for a while now though, so I don't remember the names of any.  as for warm
booting the ram drive, I never thought about doing that.

>John Lindwall                            [e-mail]



--
Rex Jolliff  ([e-mail], convex, texsun, mirror!otto!rex)
The Sun Newspaper -            |Disclaimer:  The opinions and comments in
Nevada's Largest Daily Morning | this article are my own and in no way
Newspaper                      | reflect the opinions of my employers.

------------------------------

Date:     Wed, 16 Aug 1989 22:58 EDT
From:     Greg Csullog <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Replies to some NET questions
To:       <[e-mail]>

1. BIGSCRN.PRG will not let you use bigger screen sizes under Spectre 128
   because Spectre chucks out the ST's GEM OS and substitutes the Mac's OS.
   As such, BIGSCRN.PRG is vapourized!

2. My NeoDesk manual says that formatting a disk under NeoDesk automatically
   lays down the DOS boot sector, no need to wait for TOS 1.4. A friend of
   mine says that he uses 800K disks on his 80386 and these are formatted
   under NeoDesk. Personally, I have not tried to use a NeoDesk formatted
   disk in a Pc at work, I still have a bunch of DClick formatted disks.

3. If you want to boot up your ST in medium res after saving a desktop away
   using a mono monitor, use STARTUP.PRG and the RES MEDIUM command.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 89 23:12:03 GMT
From: pepper![e-mail]  (Chuck McManis)
Subject: Re: New Atari 68030 Machines
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Curt Chambers) writes:
>Just caught a news bit in InfoWorld concerning "new" Atari
>68030 machines w/VME slots that will run Atari Unix Sys. V.

Interesting if true. I wonder how it will compete with the "you can
touch it today." Commodore 68020 and 68030 Unix boxes that have Amiga
2000 slots.

What I really wonder of course is if either of them will compete at all
with the Sun/HP/Dec 68020/68030 machines out there. Five companies each
claiming 30% of the market :-)


--Chuck McManis
uucp: anywhere!sun!cmcmanis   BIX: cmcmanis  ARPAnet: [e-mail]
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
"A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 89 21:47:17 GMT
From: pepper![e-mail]  (Chuck McManis)
Subject: Re: Multitasking on the ST
To: [e-mail]

In article [e-mail] () writes:
>Consider: You are a user of the Spiffy multi-tasking-but-no-
>per-process-memory-protection Machine.  You fire up a ray-trace.  It'll
>finish in 12 hours so you start up a terminal program and download some cool
>PD software from a BBS.  While thats all going on "in the background",  you
>fire up your compiler and start writing a new program.  You run your program
>and it has pointer error which causes random data to scribbled across memory.
>The machine crashes --- badly -- all of the processes on the machine terminate
>and the system reboots.

This is used a lot as an example but it's specious. [Why use a nickel word
when a dollar one will do :-)] Here is another perspective that might
change how you "view" something like the above situation.

Persons who argue "multitasking-but-no-per-process-memory-protection"
[MBNPPMP] systems are no more or less useful than a
"singletasking-with-Desk Accesories-or-TSR-programs" [SWDAOTP] are
pretty much correct, but they might not see that they both have the
same limitations. If you're desk accessory goes of into hilbert space
you lose the system, if your sidekick TSR writes all over low memory
for some reason you go out to lunch too. Note carefully the
similarities with this situation to the one that John describes.  So
given all this massive similarity, one has to wonder "So why do it one
way or the other?"

The only difference, and it's a big one, is that writing, running, or
starting a desk accessory or TSR type program is "different" than
writing, running, or starting a regular run of the mill program. A
MBNPPMP system has the same model for *all* programs so the distinction
between which is the "main" program and which are the "accessory"
programs goes away. If you want to use the Amiga as an example, you can
think of the workbench screen as a giant desk accessory panel that lets
you pick a desk accessory to start up. Yet, because all programs are
the same to the system, there isn't any problem with starting up the
same desk accessory twice.

The benefits that this buy you are two fold. First, you don't have to
"install" anything until it's needed. And secondly, because there are
no special cases around the types of programs, as an author and as a
user, you don't have to "know" what else has happened to the system
to be confident of working. And these make the system incredibly
flexible.

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to define which is "better." :-)

--Chuck McManis
uucp: anywhere!sun!cmcmanis   BIX: cmcmanis  ARPAnet: [e-mail]
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
"A most excellent barbarian ... Genghis Kahn!"

------------------------------

Date: 17 Aug 89 03:08:10 GMT
From:
 ginosko!aplcen!haven!uvaarpa!hudson!astsun7.astro.Virginia.EDU![e-mail]
t  (Greg Lindahl)
Subject: Re: X windows
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (DAVID
 MEGGINSON) writes:
>As far as I know, there is no XWindows.  There is a simple program
>called Unix Windows, which allows you to run several tasks on a remote
>Unix machine in different GEM windows.

You can get X Windows with IDRIS, but it runs over a serial link.
I guess the IDRIS people aren't listening anymore, as they have
posted here about the product before.

------
Greg Lindahl
[e-mail]                                             I'm not the NRA.

------------------------------

End of Info-Atari16 Digest
**************************
-------

Info-Atari16 Digest   Wednesday, August 23, 1989   Volume 89 : Issue 407

This weeks Editor: Bill Westfield

Today's Topics:

                             Xanth Demos
                          awk and MT C-Shell
              Re: My last comments about ST multitasking
                           re:multi-tasking
                              Stadel 3.3
                             Re: C.E.K.A.
                      GEM/VDI/Window programming
                      Atari GEM/VDI programming
                  Re: Latest version of PageStream?
         Towards a real, somewhat compatible multiTASKING TOS
                      Re: Multitasking on the ST
           QUESTION ABOUT USING SPECTRE WITH COLOR MONITOR
                  QUESTION ABOUT SEAGATE HARD DRIVE

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 89 13:46:30 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (Brett Bourbin)
Subject: Xanth Demos
To: [e-mail]

    Does anyone know of an archive that has the sources to the old
Xanth Park graphic demos?  I noticed in one STart issue, they had an article
about the Atari Fuji demo and said that source was available.  Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 89 15:25:20 GMT
From: ogccse!blake![e-mail]  (Moja Fritzah)
Subject: awk and MT C-Shell
To: [e-mail]

Has anybody gotten beyond the bus error running
awk under MT C-Shell?  Perhaps my 1 meg ST isn't enough...
though I have over 360k+ remaining after the shell is installed.

awk works fine in GULAM.
-kevin
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 89 16:57:43 GMT
From: cbmvax![e-mail]  (Dave Haynie)
Subject: Re: My last comments about ST multitasking
To: [e-mail]

in article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Greg
 Csullog) says:

> Look, I can format floppies from within all my ST applications,

But you have to either have the Format command available as a desk accessory
(don't know if it's possible?), or each individual program must worry about
including a disk format option.  Certainly if that's important to the market,
most will, but it's still something a program's author shouldn't have to
worry about -- debugging the real application should occupy all their time.
Plus, when I format a floppy, I can click back to my WordProcessor or
Terminal or whatever else I have running, while the format takes place.

> I can run a word processor, a spreadsheet and a painting program at the same
> time and switch between them.

But you can't have the word processor ask the data base to find you client
files, extract some data, pass it to the spreadsheet, generate a color
image, then pass that to the paint program for conversion to black and
while, before being inserted into your word processor.  You need several
programs active for that kind of interaction.

> BUT, when I want to crank out dbMAN reports from my databases (one is
> almost 4 megabytes), I don't want to slow down my 68000 by using another
> application at all. I want the dbMAN stuff out asap.

DataBase stuff is often disk intensive.  If my DB program is thumbing through
100 megs of database to prepare a report, I'll likely have lots of CPU time
left for other stuff.

--
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests"
   uunet|pyramid|rutgers!cbmvax!daveh      PLINK: D-DAVE H     BIX: hazy
           Be careful what you wish for -- you just might get it

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 16 Aug 89 13:43 CDT
To:      [e-mail]
From:    Gordon Meyer
 <[e-mail]>
Subject: re:multi-tasking

>How about dowloading a file to one drive, formatting a disk
>in the other, and editing some text at the same time.

I do exactly that on my ST already!  Using SHADOW and Mystic
Formatter (both by Double Click Software) it's a piece of
cake.

------------------------------

Date:         Wed, 16 Aug 89 16:02:37 EDT
From:         Brian Holmes <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Stadel 3.3
To:           Atari Newsgroup <[e-mail]>

I just FTPed all the Stadel 3.3 files to terminator.cc.umich.edu
They are in atari/new/stadel  .  I just thought I'd let everyone
know they are there.

                        Brian Holmes
                        CSC Operating Systems & Communications

SNAIL    : Wayne State University, 5925 Woodward, Detroit MI 48202 U.S.A.
BITNET   : BHOLMES@WAYNEST1
INTERNET : [e-mail]
UUCP     : UMIX|ITIVAX!WAYNE-MTS!BRIAN_HOLMES

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 89 20:41:48 GMT
From: zodiac!weaver![e-mail]  (Richard Lee)
Subject: Re: C.E.K.A.
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Vance Chin) writes:
|[James McHugh] will tell some pretty TALL tales,  one was that he was
|doing some work for the National Security Agency and that he sold 500
|(yes 500) ST's to them as smart crypto terminals.

Now _that's_ a good trick, since "Agency Standard Terminals" are IBM PC
AT's and XT's.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 89 11:34:36 GMT
From: mcvax!ukc!axion!fulcrum![e-mail]  (Chris Parkin Lilley)
Subject: GEM/VDI/Window programming
To: [e-mail]

Oops, forgot to include my email address for replies. Here it is...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Parkin Lilley, CS1.2,        | JANET:    [e-mail]
B.T. Fulcrum,                 | ARPA:        [e-mail]
Fordrough Lane, Bordesley Green,    |         [e-mail]
Birmingham B9 5LD, UK.            | Phone:    [phone] ext 5673

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 89 11:28:45 GMT
From: mcvax!ukc!axion!fulcrum![e-mail]  (Chris Parkin Lilley)
Subject: Atari GEM/VDI programming
To: [e-mail]

Hello AtariLand,

I am about to embark on the writing of a fairly major piece of programming on
a 1040 ST with Mark Williams C (I think). I am writing a windowing application
which will also have to gather data from the ST serial port.

Can anyone recommend
    a) a good introductory text on programming, particularly the serial
         interface and the windowing features,

    b) a good reference work for the same features

Thanx in advance,

    Chris Parkin Lilley

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 89 20:40:53 GMT
From: asuvax!hrc!gtephx![e-mail]  (Richard E. Covert)
Subject: Re: Latest version of PageStream?
To: [e-mail]

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Layne K. Jensen) writes:
> I have the version of PageStream that was released toward the end of 1988,
> the first really "usable" version.  (I don't have the disk with me at the
> moment, so I can't give the numerical version number.)  I use it occasionally,
> but the more I do the more frustrated I become with the bugs.
>
> Can someone tell me the number of the latest version?  I haven't received
> any word from SoftLogik about availability, but I recently saw a message
> on the network that made me think there may be a newer one.
>
> I've been giving SoftLogik the benefit of the doubt since the days of the
> original Publishing Partner, but it's beginning to wear thin.  If there has
> been an upgrade sometime in the last six months or so, what are the terms?
>

    A couple of things about Softlogik. First, SL is a very small company
and they have always had a bad reputation when it comes to Publishing Partner
or PageStream (PgS). The last,offically released, version of PgS was 1.52.
SL is working on a version of PgS for the Amiga, but I don't know much about
it. My feeling is that PgS for the ST is pretty much dead. I use Calamus, which
has much better support. There are rumors of 'beta' versions, up to 1.59, being
tested. In fact, I read in ST REPORT about a custmoer out in San Diego who got
1.59 by mistake. The folks at SL accussed him of piracy when he asked SL about
it.

    Another, I read an article about SL. It seems that a disgruntled (to put
it mildly (-( ) sent a mail bomb to SL after he was fired!! The SL people called
the Police, who disarmed it. I have to admire those police officers! I have no
 idea
why or who the former employee was.

    If you can get an account on GEnie you can get more info, and leave questions
to SL.
rec

ə